UPDATE! (10/08/08) Newest TV AD
(more ads below)
The TV Ad:
The Proposition 8 Web Ad:
Posted by: Carlotta | September 29, 2008
Watch “Yes On Proposition 8″ Ads
Posted in Marriage, Proposition 8 | Tags: Marriage, marriage amendment, Proposition 8, Protectmarriage.com, same-sex marriage, Yes on Proposition 8
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I happen to be a supporter of Prop 8, but I don’t think I agree with the approach of these TV ads. Essentially, their main argument seems to be that voters passed a similar resolution once and the courts overturned that resolution. Therefore, we should be indignant and pass prop 8. I think a better approach might be to list reasons why people might want to support prop 8. Perhaps a discussion of the potential consequences on society that legalization of same sex marriage might induce. Supporters of Prop 8 are already characterized as unthinking and bigoted individuals and I think it would be beneficial to show that critically thinking people can and do support Prop 8.
By: Robert on September 29, 2008
at 11:03 pm
Very good suggestion Robert. I know they do that on their websites, and perhaps future TV ads will show that.
I think it’s great though that the TV ads do show the fact that 4 people overturned what millions of voters otherwise would have desired.
If you haven’t already, go to Prop 8’s website and offer your suggestions. The more they hear from the public, perhaps they will do their ads accordingly!
By: Carlotta on September 29, 2008
at 11:18 pm
Proposition 8 should stand on its own. Do the people of California want a restrictive definition of marriage when the rest of the world, even Ecuador, is moving in the other direction? A backwards, backwoods state or a leader with an inclusive vision?
By: Tony Sidaway on September 30, 2008
at 9:56 am
Why is no one questioning the inaccuracies and red herrings these ads throw out?
“Churches can lose their tax exemptions”? How, exactly? Divorce has been legal for years in every state, and many churches will not marry a couple who have been divorced already. Do those churches lose their tax exemptions? Of course not! The government has upheld a church’s right to set policy in their own houses based on their religious belief, repeatedly.
“Gay marriage taught in schools”. So what? Should we isolate our children from the world? Knowing about homosexuality has never hurt anyone…ignorance about homosexuality has hurt thousands.
Heterosexual couples receive rights under the law for no reason other than that they are married. Why should homosexual couples be denied those very same rights simply because they are homosexual? Are they not human? And no, civil unions aren’t good enough. Civil unions are nothing more than discriminatory “Separate but Equal” practices being revived, and people should be ashamed for trying to sell it as anything other than that.
Christ loved everyone and accepted everyone…even the outcasts. Who are we to outcast the very people that he would receive with open arms? Who are we to say, you are less in Christ’s eyes because of who you are?
By: CX on September 30, 2008
at 10:42 pm
CX, read my “Gay Unions don’t affect religious freedom? Think again!” discussion on the very questions you raise.
Thanks!
By: Carlotta on September 30, 2008
at 10:49 pm
@ Carlotta: While unfortunate, the instances you cite all have something in common. They all involve a group taking advantage of programs or incentives provided by the government that had certain stipulations for participation. They violated those stipulations, so the government pulled their support. They could still continue acting privately, but they could not continue taking money from the government due to non-discrimination policies that are meant to protect everyone, regardless of what their religion. This applies to any group, religious or not. If a rule is violated, participation in the program is pulled.
As for the justice of the peace being fired leading to churches being threatened is a faulty leap of logic. The justice was a government employee who had to uphold the government’s policies of not discriminating against any citizens. Churches are separate entities who’s practices have been protected by the government against third parties on several occasions. Legalized gay marriages will not change that.
Will there be instances where a person will feel inconvenienced because their religious belief conflicts with government policy? Of course. That has ALWAYS been the case. That’s been going on since before homosexuality became the hot button issue. Religion and the government have to perform a tentative balancing act with each other and it isn’t always steady. However, it doesn’t change the fact that the government CANNOT make a law that discriminates against anyone based on religious beliefs, just like it CANNOT make a law that descriminates against anyone BECAUSE OF their religious belief.
Either way, my point still stands. Christs teachings never included descriminating against your brothers and sisters, simply because they believe differently from you…especially when their beliefs do no real harm to anyone. He accepted everyone with love. Why do Christians today find that such a hard lesson to live up to?
By: CX on September 30, 2008
at 11:23 pm
CX, you are confusing Christ’s acceptance of people with Christ’s acceptance of sin. Homosexual marriages are sin, and therefore an afront to Jesus Christ.
Just read the biblical passages throughout the New Testament to get an idea of what Jesus thinks about sin. It is absolutely never tolerated by our Lord. Forgiven, yes, but not accepted or tolerated.
So for those of us who are “discriminating” against homosexual marriages, we do so no only for spiritual reasons, but for reasons I’ve detailed in my previous post that I mentioned.
I won’t go into anymore detail here about that because I’ve written quite a bit about it in my other posts.
My final point still stands, Christians lives are being uprooted because of discriminating and taking a stand against homosexuality.
I won’t be commenting any more on this so please refer to my previous posts.
Thanks!
By: Carlotta on October 1, 2008
at 7:00 am
Its nice to know that the people on your website can erase the responses that i left on here yesterday. What an accepting religion of people. Debatesd are a natural part of life and I do not believe that I posted anything derogatory or offensive, I meerly posted my personal response and a possible answer to the situation.
No wonder religion cannot be removed from politics because it is people like you who cannot even accept that there are many different people in the world with different beliefs. You want us all to be robots and cannot even give a polite response back to a solution that I presented to your readers. I fear for the health of our nations when people cannot even compromise or acknowledge other peoples beliefs or freedom of speech!
By: Katrina on October 6, 2008
at 11:26 am
Katrina, before you get even more upset with me - I never received the comments you are talking about.
I usually get email alerts when comments are posted, but I never received any - even from the two comments I received you. I found that kind of odd. I checked my Spam queue where spam is sent automatically because of key words or traits, but your comments weren’t in there either.
So, I never received them. At least I don’t remember doing so. I do have a terrible memory. So if you don’t mind, send them back to me again and I’ll moderate them for posting.
Sorry about that!
By: Carlotta on October 6, 2008
at 11:50 am
DON’T ELIMINATE RIGHTS FOR ANY CALIFORNIANS!
By: Calvin Backman on October 7, 2008
at 9:54 am
The infancy of every civil rights movement is met with fear, masked by bigotry and hatred, from ignorant “critically thinking” people. Laws had to be passed to protect the rights of black people in this country — even against the wishes and protests of millions of “critically thinking” people who would have definitely voted against the rights of blacks, if given the opportunity. The questions is not whether a majority of people (whose lives are honestly not affected by Prop 8 anyway) should vote for it or against it — but whether people have a right to vote against the rights of any minority group. By definition a minority will not be in the majority, so their rights have to be protected by laws, or there would be chaos. I am a law-biding, tax-paying American citizen who was born gay. Just as years of being schooled about heterosexuality did not “convert” me, there is no way my life could convert a heterosexual. (And I wouldn’t want to.) I have a right to marry another consenting adult, whom I love and want to spend the rest of my life with. And no one has the right to take that basic civil right away from me. Period. No matter how many of you vote against it. Just as your vote couldn’t take away the civil rights of any other minority.
At a time when there is so much ugliness in the world, so much to truly fear and fight against, WHY FIGHT LOVE?
Vote No on Prop 8. And go on with your own life.
By: Leo on October 9, 2008
at 1:32 pm
Fortunately for the country Leo, we haven’t made marriage accessible to people based on their feelings of “love” in their relationships.
Marriage has survived the ages as husband and wife, male and female because of its natural inclination for founding families.
The floodgates will open if we allow same-sex marriages based on the “love” factor, and just like the $700 billion bailout and now everyone wanting a bailout, so will every type of “love” relationship be wanting their legality too!
The strength of any society, no matter what religion if any at all, has recognized the completeness of marriage through a male and female relationship.
Check out the discussion on the Fine Line rally post for more about the changing of the definition of marriage. And make sure you check out the Fine Line Video that talks about what you mentioned as well.
By: Carlotta on October 9, 2008
at 1:35 pm
It is wrong — and, in fact, very un-Christ-like — for children to be exploited for this hateful campaign.
But, in all truth, the correct response to that little girl is: “Yes, honey, if in fact you are a lesbian, you can marry another girl. And your father and I will always love you, no matter what. But if you’re not a lesbian, you will not marry a girl, you will marry the man you choose. And you’ll be glad that those who are gay can marry whomever they choose.”
By: Rob on October 9, 2008
at 1:43 pm
“Yes honey, if in fact you are a lesbian and you marry another girl, I will love you in spite of the fact I won’t go to your wedding and consider your relationship sinful as an act of disobedience towards God. I will pray that you love Jesus as He loves you and no longer remain a lesbian.”
That would be my response.
Children aren’t being exploited at all. This a a truthful video, an example of what’s already happened! How can it be exploit when it’s true?
By: Carlotta on October 9, 2008
at 2:08 pm
It is a very slippery slope to assume you know what God wants. (Since God made me gay, who are you to tell God he’s wrong?) It is convenient for you to quote the Bible when it serves you, but have you ever actually read it? All of it? I feel compelled to quote from an appropriate letter to someone who shares your views, Dr. Laura.
“Dear Dr. Laura,
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God’s Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.
a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians?
e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. Can you settle this?
g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?
i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.
Thank you again for reminding us that God’s word is eternal and unchanging.
Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.” A little snarky, I know, but it really should make you think. If you hide behind the shield of the Bible for your argument, you are saddled by the whole Bible, not just the verses that serve you.
And, yes, those ads are terribly exploitative of children. They speak to the base (and wrong) fears, and breed hate — not the love that Christ spoke of. They are manipulative, hypocritical, non-Christian and just down-right ugly. Not to mention sad and desperate. They mock any true debate by screaming “BOO!”
By: Rob on October 9, 2008
at 3:28 pm
No need to ask Dr. Laura. God’s word is readily available for you to read for yourself!
Because if you had read for yourself, you would have learned that the Old Testament means Old Covenant and the New Testament is the New Covenant. This is what is said about that new covenant:
Thus the ushering in of the New Testament and that is what we go by today.
So that makes it even more imperative that homosexuality must be forsaken because even under the New Covenant, homosexuality is still considered an abomination!
The scriptures are quite plain and clear regarding homosexuality and God is not pleased about it at all.
That’s a very good ad with the child in it, but that ad only duplicates exactly what happened in Massachusetts already.
We have to get the truth out - no matter how much it hurts!
By: Carlotta on October 9, 2008
at 4:00 pm
Quoting the arcane ramblings of a first century tribe of desert nomads (who believed, among other things, that the Earth was flat) to deal with 21st century situations is really just sad.
Rob, there’s no point in arguing with fundamental Christians who believe, like their fundamental Islamic brethren, in a god who simply does not exist. They cling to an ancient text that was meant to dictate the lives of a long-ago tribe of people (the “bible”) and are hopelessly lost. Mired in the ludicrous “teachings” and apologizing for the conflicting rules. (Just look at whywontgodhealamputees.com if you want to really learn the truth about their god — but be ready to be blown out of your seat if you’ve been drinking the Christian kool-aid for most of your life — and if you have any kind of open mind at all.) Fortunately, truth and justice are on our side. And if Prop 8 is passed, it will be stricken from the law books as the unlawful hateful proposition it is. Just as it took laws to allow black people and whites to be able to marry, just as it took laws to allow minorities to move up from the back of the bus, just as it took laws to allow women to vote (which would have all been voted down by the “majority” if they could have been). As with all civil rights movements, the gay civil rights movement is a long march toward equality and justice — with hatemongers screaming “think of the children” in our faces (always their desperate last cry). Think of the children if — they are made to go to school with “colored” children, — their mother leaves the home to go to work, — they learn that there are people different than they are in the world (gasp! gay! eek!) But we will overcome.
In the meantime, there is no arguing with some. (Just check out godhatesfags.com for some of their histrionics.) Ironically, they call themselves Christian (which, to them, some how means “loving” and “forgiving” and other positive things) but they can not see the light. They can not see the irony in their hate. They can not see that their own hate PROVES that this religion they call Christian is just man-made. Created to fill a void that science has long since filled (check out the gay penguins at http://www.emperor-penguin.com/gay-penguins.html if you believe that homosexuality is nurtured and not in nature).
If we believe the latest apology, that we should only believe the New Testament, then we would still have slaves (Matthew 18:25, Mark 14:66, Luke 12:45-48) and, boy, that’s just not the world I live in.
Cheers.
By: Leo on October 9, 2008
at 5:12 pm
If you’re going to quote scripture, at least make sure they are in context. Anyone reading those can see your feeble attempt in quoting of that what you do not know. Especially Luke 12 that you quoted which was a great example of an “evil” servant.
Also, the bible believers only had to quote Isaiah 40:22 to know the earth was round and not flat.
And you are making a grave mistake in equating gay rights with civil rights. You will never run into anyone who can say, “I used to be black” but you can run into people have can say “I used to be gay.” You can change your sexual choices, people can’t change their race.
Civil rights was simply to be treated as any other human being. Gay rights is beyond being treated well, but an attempt to change the whole spectrum of what it means to be a family. Gay rights is attempting to completely re-engineer the social construct of the family. Civil rights at no time attempted to changed society for the worse, but for the better.
There is no such thing as justice for sexual immorality/sexual behavior. But justice for racial prejudice makes sense.
But I do agree with you that there’s no point in arguing. Leo, you don’t agree with us fundy Christians and that’s okay.
Just praying for your and other unbelievers’ salvation in Jesus Christ.
By: Carlotta on October 9, 2008
at 5:57 pm
Carlotta, you go ahead and close your eyes and think real hard. Speak in tongues, if that makes you feel better. Unfortunately, there’s no one there to hear you. But your need to cling to an artificial deity because of your yearning to belong and your fear of death is understandable. It has taken us a couple millennia to get to the elevated point in human evolution where we are right now. Where we can look at religion as the fallacy it is. Had you been born in Riyadh or Tehran, you would be bowing down to Allah several times a day. Had you been born in Mumbai, it might be Aditi who garnered your devotion. And you would be just as convinced that those gods were real as you are that yours is. As chance has it, you were born to Christians and you followed, like a good little sheep, the teachings of your parents.
As luck would have it, I was born gay. Yes, born this way. There simply is no way to change ones sexuality. (I’d love to know at what point you found yourself attracted to another woman and “chose” to instead be heterosexual — think about it good and hard and you’ll see the lunacy of that belief.) Anyone who says they were “once gay” is lying at least to you and probably, sadly, themselves (ask the very reverend Ted Haggard). Imagine all the families (like Mr. Haggard’s) that have been destroyed because fundamental Christians tortured young gay men and women into believing they were sinful (what a joke) and forcing them into a heterosexual marriages — ending with either the suicide of the poor creature or a divorce where both parties (and often children) suffer. What a great supporter of the institution of marriage Christians really turn out to be, huh? (There is no such thing as “ex-gay” any more than there is, thank you for the analogy, Carlotta, “ex-black.”)
But every minority has had to put up with the tyrannical rule and downplaying of our status by the majority, gays are no different. If we all listened to people like dear Carlotta here, there would still be 2 sets of water fountains — and a separate back entrance for “coloreds.” But other minority groups did not sit back and accept oppression and neither will we. And our time has come. You said it best when you said “civil rights (is) simply to be treated as any other human being.” Yes. Or, as you may grasp a little better, amen.
Our founding fathers had the foresight to insist on separation of church and state. Because religion poisons everything.
On another note, how sad for you and your little daughter that you would miss out on one of the biggest and most important days of her life simply because you believed that some made-up deity wouldn’t want you to be there. I hope for both your sakes that she isn’t gay. My parents (god-loving christians that they are) espouse a more loving attitude toward me. And had the time of their lives at my wedding last month. As did all my other 100 guests, my husband and myself. Not only will gay marriages promote equality and justice for a deserving (and much-oppressed) minority, it will generate desperately needed income for the California economy (something even Governor S. has admitted).
By: Leo on October 9, 2008
at 6:32 pm
The least of my concerns right now is the money that would be generated through gay marriages Leo.
But I want to get back to something you said in your earlier post. You said you don’t want to be changed from being gay.
Those who desire to please God and believe what the bible says about homosexuality DO want to change. But in your case it makes sense because you don’t even believe in the almighty God so therefore you have no desire to live according to God’s ways.
Anyways, I’ve allowed you to rant and hopefully you feel a little better.
By: Carlotta on October 9, 2008
at 7:08 pm
And Leo, again, for the full discussion on the separation of church and state issue, look at the Fine Line Rally video at post #1 of my Prop 8 posts, and read the discussions about it under post #2.
That’s why I won’t get into it here with you on this post. I’ve already beaten to death that topic. See you there if you want to continue discussing that.
Otherwise, let’s save this space for strictly the Prop 8 ad videos.
By: Carlotta on October 9, 2008
at 7:29 pm
You are right Carlotta, you allowed me to rant. This is your blog, you could have easily just deleted my comments and you didn’t. You allowed them to stay and you argued passionately against them. Although I don’t agree with your opinion, I respect your right to have it. And I thank you for allowing me to voice my opinions.
By: Leo on October 9, 2008
at 9:56 pm
How hilariously hypocritical of you, Carlotta, to be a divorced person screaming about the “sanctity of marriage”! That is just too much. Honey, Jesus never said anything about homosexuality, but he had plenty to say on the subject of divorce.
Mark 10:9 “Therefore what God has joined together, man may not separate.”
Luke 16:18 “Anyone who divorces his wife ad marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.”
So you propose to cast stones against those you deem sinners while your sin is even greater, in the eyes of God? Shame on you. If you are really so concerned about the sanctity of marriage, outlaw divorce. And then try to preach to me.
All your arguments are moot.
Everything you said has been debunked.
By: Rob on October 10, 2008
at 12:24 am
You’re welcomed Leo!
I know this is a passionate topic and the sad thing about it, somebody will be hurting after the end of the voting in November regarding this marriage issue.
I don’t take this as an ‘us’ against ‘them’ issue, but an issue where all people are involved and considered important Californians who want consideration for their relationships.
So anyway, I do appreciate your comments, rant or not as long as they are respectful which for the most part, yours have been.
By: Carlotta on October 10, 2008
at 7:22 am
Rob, because of my divorce, I have even a greater respect for marriages! I’ve seen the emotional harm that divorce has caused my children, but I was involved with an unrepentant cheater - to this day has still never acknowledged his one fault that brought our marriage down.
Adultery was the only excuse the Lord allowed for divorce, so I didn’t sin in doing it. No hypocriticalness at all, and an abrupt judgment from you who didn’t even know my background.
So Rob, before you go about debunking folks, make sure that 1) You know a little about their circumstances and 2) you know scripture.
By: Carlotta on October 10, 2008
at 7:28 am
I have to agree with Leo: Keep your religion out of my politics! You may want to waste your life being brainwashed by a cult like islam, scientology or christianity but that doesn’t mean I have to let it infect my life. Christianity is a cancer on humanity. Throughout history, it has been responsible for the suffering and brutal death of hundreds of millions. Enabled by apologists like those ranting here. Rabid apologists have allowed for everything from witch trials to the crusades to the recent molestation of innocent children. Shameful. Just for those three examples alone, Christianity should end. The founders of our country looked to put an end to that by insisting that religion stay out of politics. Stay out! Keep to your churches and synogogues and stay out our lives. When the silly nursery rhymes and ghost stories of christianity are wiped away, humanity is left to look at the true wonders of the universe, to find the true beauty of life. This one life we have. The oppressive, tyrant church has no right to dictate its views on anyone. Forget trivial fiction like the bible, read the constitution.
By: Michael on October 10, 2008
at 10:18 am
It’s crazy to me that marriage laws can be based on gender when it is such a fluid thing to begin with. Perhaps we should not worry about teaching our children that same-sex marriage is OK and instead teach a more holistic–fluid–approach to gender identity to include the spectrum of gender, not the binary system that is so widely taught. Once people understand the fluidity of identity and gender, marriage for love and not gender will be easier to grasp.
By: fluid on October 14, 2008
at 7:09 pm
In other news: A Majority In Connecticut Poll Backs Gay Marriage Ruling” (Hartford Courant, October 14, 2008)
By: Tony Sidaway on October 15, 2008
at 12:01 am